Larry’s background as an educator/artist began at the Faculty of Education at the University of Toronto, in 1976, where he majored in Art. His minor subject was Drama. When he first got a job he was a Language Arts Teacher but enjoyed additional qualification Drama courses so much that it became a part of his teaching in Language Arts. Since then he has gone on to do workshops, and has taught at the Faculty of Education. He also has taught classes at the Young People’s Theatre which has helped him to experiment with Drama-in-Education on his own terms.

He has taught the full range of elementary grades. His last teaching experience was in a Primary classroom. He was hired as a Language Arts consultant in ‘86 and his package was Drama k-8 (Drama and Language Arts) and in the middle of that term he was hired as a Drama consultant for the Peel Board of Education where he was responsible for Drama across the Board, spoke to High school Teachers, worked in the classrooms, developed curriculum in Language Arts before he returned to the classroom. For two years, he worked for the publisher, Meadow Books, as a Language Arts consultant for their Language Arts reading series. He wrote the successful, Dramathemes, and its newly revised and updated edition. He also has written a book on teaching poetry, Classroom Events Through Poetry. He has been working on his doctoral dissertation in Education.

Larry feels that he has been very lucky in his life. He was taught by Julianna Saxton in Drama-in-Education at the Faculty of Education at the University of Toronto. He said that he didn’t work well in groups at the time and didn’t understand much about role-playing but still kept at it. And he also felt lucky to have had David Booth and Chuck Lundy as instructors at the same time. He learned a great deal from them, especially from David Booth, whose work he admired and who became Larry’s mentor in his teaching career.

He took a course with Rudy Schoengroen who he believes was one of the best Drama educators in Ontario and feels that he was lucky to have studied with him. He also worked with Debbie Nyman, a colleague at the Young Peoples Theatre where they talked about ideas together and he learned a great deal from her. And there were members of a Drama group he worked with at the Faculty that included Jeannie Nishimura, Ellen Messing, Kathy Lundy, Ellen Messing, and Carol Thornley-Hall, as well as Debbie Nyman. So, he was very lucky to have teaching partners who helped him to reflect on Drama.

He was very fortunate at the end of the ‘80’s to go to England and work with Tony Goode, Jonathan Neelands and Warwick Dobson who gave him a more in-depth perspective of teaching Drama and using structures for learning experiences. He has taken courses with Cecily O’Neill in Ohio which he felt was an excellent experience. And Bob Barton certainly has been a mentor with his work with ‘story’. At OISE, he worked with Richard Courtney in the Arts, and Gordon Wells in Language Arts. So he has been very lucky with these people of academic excellence he has worked with.

Larry met me at OISE when we took a research course with Joyce Wilkinson. We did a research project together investigating the role of questioning in Drama. With the transcripts and tape recordings from that project, we wrote an article for the CODE Journal on that topic. In the course of our Doctoral degree programs, we, collaborated in a colloquium with our advisor, Richard Courtney

For Larry, the turning points in his career involved a number of changes he experienced. " I think whenever a teacher has a grade assignment changed, it becomes a turning point. So, certainly being hired by the Peel Board of Education as a consultant and then, as a Language Arts Consultant, and giving workshops throughout Canada were turning points. Each of those changes has helped him look at his own beliefs in teaching and sharing those beliefs with other teachers."

Usually, when Larry talks about Drama, he does not use the word "therapy" nor has he been conscious of it as a therapeutic medium in the classroom. When he would talk about that topic, it would be in terms of social growth, intellectual growth, physical growth and growth through communication, but he would not mention "emotional growth". Therapy would not be a word that he would use whenever he would talk about teaching Drama. Similarly, when he has worked with teachers he tended not to say that they were doing Drama for Therapy but would recognize its therapeutic benefit. He has come to terms with what the term "Therapy" means but doesn’t "do" Drama specifically to change a person’s behaviours or attitudes.

I asked Larry to explain why he does Drama in terms of its personal and social values. He said that he loves to inspire children’s creativity and letting them have an opportunity to reveal their thinking and feeling is exciting for him.

I use literature so when they respond to literature and give their own ideas and share their own personal stories through questions, I find that rather exciting so I would say that creativity is probably the reason I do Drama. But I think it’s more of a releasing of responses that are floating, or galloping around in their heads. I do lots of Drama to promote group and interaction and communication.

He remembered Cecily O’Neill saying that if we can get young people to listen to each other, then it benefits. So, in his opinion, we all have different objectives and he thinks that it’s promoting communication and having them feel comfortable communicating with each other and at the same time learning something about themselves. But he warned that you cannot necessarily know for sure that they have learned. He thinks that it is more of a long-term project.

He realizes that the more he learns about Drama-in-Education, the more he attempts to experiment. "I think I learn from the people that I meet and lots of readings that I do." And he continues on his quest struggling with the questions, "Can I do that? Should I do that? Why do I do that? How do I do that?" He thinks he is a different teacher than he was because he has learned that "it is more important to reflect than just do and talk about what learning is happening. I hope that I am a bit more holistic than I was. And that is something that I challenge myself to do."

He didn’t remember if he had ever witnessed or been involved with Drama as Therapy. "Maybe there was a workshop that did talk about that but I think when I’ve witnessed things (but this would be adults put through Drama situations where they were prompted to share their personal emotions that wouldn’t have been revealed otherwise); that might be Therapy, I don’t think the intent was Therapy so I wouldn’t call it Dramatherapy."

Regarding texts from the field of Dramatherapy, the book by Sue Jennings, "is a book that I recommend to people who request information in that area, and she deals with a more clinical field." That book was the only one that he was aware of. He was unaware of his use of any therapeutic methods in his teaching children. "Not in Drama. The things that we do it for I’ll call it discipline. Is that therapy where we try to look at why they behave the way they behave; not just in terms of behaviour but their performances and the processes they go through? I don’t know if that is Therapy when you talk to the kids about why you do what you do, but that goes on everyday, but not in a Drama context is what I mean."

In a whole class when he is doing ‘hot-seating’, for example, he emphasized that it would be always ‘in role’. "And I don’t think I am doing anything therapeutic necessarily for the child." He employs the method of hot-seating because it is a Drama Structure and not as a therapeutic mode. "It’s usually in an in–role, improvisational context".

In his work with students, he has responded emotionally to their emotional, and psychological reactions. "I actually try and do it as a ‘see me later’. I mean I do teach a lot of adults and if they get touched or something or if something is triggered, I let them talk about it with me privately." He believes that he is sensitive if his students are upset or don’t understand the context. "But, if they choose to reveal an emotion in class, then they talk about it because that is the learning for the group. And he tries to talk about his own responses so that they would feel comfortable to come up and say, ‘You know that bothered me.’ So in that sense it is more of a one-on-one meeting after the class." He thinks if it happens in the middle of the class, then that is just talking about an issue but he doesn’t think that it is necessarily a personal or therapeutic one. "It is more of a group issue."

I asked him whether he believes that students need to experience Drama in their lives. When he does do Drama with students (he does feel guilty about not doing enough), he said, "It is about their social growth, cooperating, listening to others." And he strongly believes in doing Drama to promote those.

In terms of thought, it raises the questions: "My thought? Our thoughts? Your thought?" and Drama helps them see that other people have different thoughts than they do, or that their thoughts could be respected and received. So, he thinks that that is a healthy thing to do and he tries to promote that. In terms of communication and language development, he thinks that it’s an opportunity for students to use their language. "And when you use a Drama context, it’s an art form that helps them to reflect on their real thoughts. Then there is physical activity that helps them work with their physical growth." He thinks that Drama does all of the above; however, "some lessons do it better than others or are more focused than others."

As far as needing to experience Drama, Larry believes that students need to listen, to talk to feel, to reflect, to collaborate, to cooperate, to imagine, and to feel. He thinks that these are things that we all need as human beings. "I think that when we do it with young children, particularly at this age level, it extends their world of play which is a whole other issue about learning through play. I think it extends the world of play for young people and helps them look at situations from role play and from imagined experiences."

In his opinion, his methods are respected. "I would hate to be cynical about how much my ideas are transferred into others’ practices but because my book has been successful, I would assume that they would take some of the ideas from that try to use some of the philosophy that I have." So he has touched a lot of people through his Drama workshops and he thinks that they recognize why he does what he does and the potential for what they can do. "But to say that Drama is happening out there may be too optimistic."

I asked Larry if he was aware of the inclusion of therapeutic objectives in Ministry documents, Board initiatives or literature. "Isn’t there something about the ‘self’ in the Common Curriculum? I think that would include it but that’s as far as it goes." Larry didn’t believe that there was the use of the word, Therapy, in any of the documents.

Larry defines Dramatherapy as "changing behaviours and attitudes towards emotions." He underlines the word, ‘change’. "And, as I see it, Therapy is about recognition of personal behaviours. So, Drama recognizes that too so I suppose the two meld. That’s why when I do Drama, it is about some kind of change, hopefully, but I don’t think about it on therapeutic terms."

In terms of therapeutic outcomes, he wasn’t sure that he could tell in a class if the students had changed or learned anything. "I certainly couldn’t tell in a year and I don’t know what the outcomes are in terms of growth and change and certainly in terms of therapeutic benefits. So, I think it is a long-term thing."

To Larry, the forms of Drama that has been the best vehicle for therapeutic results would have been probably in the observation, role-playing and hot-seating techniques. For example, when he puts a participant in the other’s shoes and examines behaviours and talks about it and one person is ‘on the line’ (or in the hot seat) and in the group a number of participants are observing and talking about that behaviour, he does not do it to "change" that person. Whereas, in Therapy he believes that the intent is to change that person. "Drama, I just see it differently. The intent is different, I think."

He felt somewhat insecure about doing the interview for my thesis but noted how it might personally benefit his practice. "When I knew you were coming to do an interview about Dramatherapy, I realized that I don’t know much about it. And it just always lets me question about the Drama that I do. So, it prompted that thought, but I would say that I don’t do it with the intent for therapy."

When teachers talk to Larry about Drama, they always say, "Oh, I have never seen a kid behave like that!" or "Oh, he surprised me with the things he said!" Larry gets excited when teachers come out with the pride in themselves that it happened through Drama. He thinks that it is a very common thing where the Drama is successful in that way. He would not put himself in the league of some of the masters but he sees the same thing happen when he watches Jonathon (Neelands) work or when he watches David (Booth) work. "You are taken by surprise at the things the children do or say. And, sometimes, without even knowing the kids, you just find out that, ‘Wow, that was something new for that kid’!" For Larry, that would be exciting.

Larry finds it hard to identify any positive or negative therapeutic results from his Drama teaching because he deals with so many students in such a short time. But he said that he likes talking about what he sees in the students. Teachers have asked him, "Did you know that this student is from a ‘whatever’ situation?" And he would always reply, "No, I didn’t know it," because "he just takes a student for what he is."

Since 1995, Larry has been a classroom teacher at Silverthorn Public School responsible for teaching grades 2 to 5. He is currently at Burnhamthorpe Public School in a half time position as an in-school literacy resource who works with a classroom on request. Specifically, he is responsible for literacy instruction for the Regional Option in Peel. He has continued to give several in -service sessions throughout the country, taught the summer and winter additional qualification courses in Drama for OISE/UT and was a literacy instructor for York University AQ courses for two years. He also has a half-time position as an instructor in the pre-service program at OISE/UT. He is currently the principal of Dramatic Arts AQ courses at OISE/UT.

His Drama teaching continues to be integrated into his Language Arts and Theme program where appropriate. In his opinion, the introduction of the Ministry Arts Curriculum document has helped promote Arts awareness to some extent. "Because of this document and because Drama appears on the report card, teachers are at least aware of the need to address Drama in the curriculum." But he is afraid that the methodologies are still limited.

Larry was concerned with these questions: How are teachers going to learn about teaching through Drama? How do they prioritize their curriculum initiatives with all the documents and hundreds of expectations they need to address? His cynical yet realistic self would say that Drama (the Arts) is not a priority. He feels optimistic when he sees the increase in the number of people taking Drama AQ courses over the past few years.

His book, Dramathemes, (1995), continues to be a resource that fills a need for those interested in learning about Drama. Dramatherapy, however, is clearly not a priority for Larry but he recognizes the potential and also his lack of confidence in his ability, knowledge and experience to deal with Drama as Therapy. "I mean Dramatherapy is something that is alien and I am intrigued to read your thesis when it is published and I’d ask you if you did therapy, which is a whole other discussion." I said that I thought that would be a challenge and that he might get a chance to find out the hidden therapies that come out of other people’s work.